CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was stillI was still interested in stamps and coins. Yeah, not so much an engraving. I mean, you have to be able to provide for everybody that works for the company, but, you know, the company itself may not provide for its shareholders very well. So rather than go back to schoolI wasn't going back to schoolI went and got a programming job at Lifeline Systems, which was a very short, concentrated project. Where you. But, you know, the other trip that really comes to mind recentlyand, again, it's in a totally unrelated field. And I got to the point whereand again, I'll beI'll stand corrected on this, because I know a collector in Boston who has a very strong opinion on what I'm about to saybut I ended my venture in Chinese export porcelain to my satisfaction, meaning that I couldn't go any further in that particular collecting area, other than to buy more expensive, singular examples of the same thing. In that case, yes. So, I hadit's an unlined painting, so I said, "Well, it's a little fragile." And we were able to put together a comprehensive Laserstein show. And you know, we had sort of half-begging, half-boasting meetings where we said, "Yes, we know the boy got all Fs in high school. They want to hear what's the number and, you know, "When can you pay me?" I'm sort of burrowing a hole in the bottom of a library and shining a flashlight on a book under a cover, so no one knows what I'mwhat embarrassments I'm reading about. There's a plaque to my grandfather, dedicated to my grandfather, but it doesn't say anything about me. Well, we still have some aspects of those things, but certainly not at the scale. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that the firstso you said that was the first painting? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Leysen. Winslow Homer's "The Gulf Stream" (1899/reworked by 1906) is the centerpiece of a revelatory exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I'm certain it was with Mildred, because she was very involved in all of those things. So I dropped. CLIFFORD SCHORER: so, there weren't purpose-specific stamp and coin auctions in Boston, really. You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. And so, those are wonderful. There can beyou know, that's much more of a contemporary problem. I think it ended when I was 11. [Laughs.]. [00:34:00]. It was a fantasy shop that wasn't going to exist, but it was just an idea of how I would pass my time, because I need something to do. I was thinking of something more basic. What I would have done was purchase the assets; I would have purchased the library. Her book is in Italian. So, you know, when bold ideas come, I'm the kind of, you know, the vetting board for the bold ideas, and I enjoy that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do not. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: At what pointat what point did you think about putting aside, possibly in storage, or selling that first Chinese porcelain collection? I was in East Germany, Romania, Albania, you know. But really, this house sort of speaks for itself as a kind of singular work of art, as Gropius so often said. They've always been that way. If we rely upon the aesthetic of our art and say, Here it is. So. I liked heavy curtains. Clifford Schorer says the painting was used as security for a loan and that he is now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I wrote back, and I said, you know, "I told you, you've got to have kids." So you have dead artists' legacies advocating, which I think is a much easier thing to negotiate. You know, bringing an efficiency model to a museum can destroy a museum. Or whose voice will impact this collection that's sort of held for the public trust? So that's always. So that would be '83? This is a taste period that is clearly distinct from the prior taste period and, you know, probably will be distinct from the future taste period, because if we don't evolve in that way, we will basically fail. I lasted six months. Or some of the 300? [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Can you remember key purchases you made in thosewhat you define as early years? The book isso, Hugh Brigstocke and his new. And so the market of those dedicated folks is shrinking. I meansomething very strangebut nothing, no art. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. I think that what people said to me back then, because it was a different kind of marketplace, wasit was all about market strategy. JUDITH RICHARDS: You just didn't want to think about selling? No. That's all. And I left and I started the company. And I had learned four or five other programming languages and shown proficiency in them, just because I knew that they'd be useful. And eventually we agreed to part friends. And fortunately, as I outlined earlier, I can look at an Antwerp picture orrarely, but sometimes, an Amsterdam picture and an Italian picture, you know, a Naples picture or a Roman picture, so I have maybe three or four opportunities a year where most collectors might have one. I would. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? And unfortunately, I mean. How much institutions' collecting is based on what collectors want to collect versuspossibly versus what the curators want to collect. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. And that's the absent member of the family that had a great influence. And you know, the American catastrophe. He'syou know, he sponsors museum events; he sponsors exhibitions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, but you know what I mean. So in other words . You know, if it rises to that levelI mean, there's an old joke about the museum world is nothing but one big conflict of interest. I mean, you know, we have collegial discussions at two in the morning over, you know, a drink, about the relative merits of this painting by, you know, fill in the blank[Alessandro] Magnascoversus this painting by Magnasco. And, you know, obviously, we also value our clients; we work with our clients. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds likegone through all the money. I don't know if, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't know if I would say collecting books. If you come of age at a certain point in the collecting dynamic, and you are presented with the last 12 years of catalogues, and you go through them all, and from that you draw your conclusions about what the marketplace has been, and then you make the investor's fatal error of projecting the future as the same as the past, the problem there is that you say to yourself, Okay, a painting by, you know, fill in the blank, Molenaer, is worth 20,000 for a minor work. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're notit sounds like you're not sure you will go back to collecting for yourself. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whatever you want to do, it's fine. And so there I found that, you know, I was able to do a very nice return on equity and do something I enjoyed and run around on airplanes looking at pictures that I wanted to look at. Winslow Homer American Painter, Watercolorist and Printmaker Born: February 24, 1836 - Boston, Massachusetts Died: September 29, 1910 - Prout's Neck, Maine Movements and Styles: American Realism , Naturalism , The Sublime in Art , American Realism Winslow Homer Summary Accomplishments Important Art Influences and Connections Useful Resources I mean, there wereit was such a different time. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that similar tois that situation similar to other galleries in London that have once had 40 employees in the field and now are reduced to this kind of more focused business? [00:26:00] And not only the real deal, but it was the genesis of seven other copies that have all been variously considered either by van Dyck or byyou know, one is in Hampton Court; one is in the Hermitage. Just to pick up a little bit from where we left off yesterday, this is still before Agnew's enters the picturein the earlyinaroundso you're collecting Italian Baroque, as you described it yesterday. [They laugh.] Is this Crespi?" And we've obviously done a lot of work on our Pre-Raphaelite exhibition, which was kind of a protractedwe did, basically, a two-year Pre-Raphaelite fiesta, with lots of publications. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, and she got tired of my letters, and eventually she'd write back and say, "Yes." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, with plenty of Q&A. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, selling a 50,000 work when you have 800,000 in overheadif you're on a commission basis, you have to sell a lot of 50,000 works. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I mean, I would say that all of those things would be exciting and fun to do, but unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do them all. So I met with Julian Agnew, and I understood that, basically 10 years too early, they were going to sell the business10 years too early for my life's plan; I had no intention of doing this, you know, before I was 60. So, you know, as you say, you know, as we were talking about yesterday, that intersection of conception and craft. And, you know, obviously, Bill Viola was looking at the Old Masters and thinking aboutyou know, he says as much in his own words. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of which I can appreciate; I mean, I understand that. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" Judith Olch Richards (1947- ) is former executive director of iCI in New York, New York. But I bought it for the frame. Professor Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. I did put them in boxes and move them to deep storage. I wanted to start by asking you to say when and where you were born, and to talk about your immediate family, their names, and anyone else who was important to you in your family. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. At the core, CLIFFORD SCHORER: American and European. So I would say that's probably the only piece of advice I can have, is that you have to be much more object-focused, learn as much as you can about that object, and try as much as possible to ignore the catalogue entry that shows Chairman Mao by Andy Warhol next to Leonardo da Vinci next to the so-called lot that you're about to buy, and draws these amazing marketing inferences that, you know, you will be like the Medici if you buy this thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, they close rooms. Anthony's family livesthey own the Isle of Bute in [. Jon Landau I certainly know more. We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. We had 15 layers of varnish and retouches to take off, and underneath we had a masterpiece. So it was at that time, the seeds were planted to grow that institution visitation to 200,000, and that's happened. And now the painting hangs at the Worcester Art Museum so it can be seen, and basically, you know, after all of that gunk was stripped off, the painting that emerged is extraordinary, so we're very excited. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, it's paramount for the museum world. And then I moved to Boston directly. I've got some French examples. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. So of theof the monochromes, the earlier pieces, I only have maybe 20 pieces left. I mean, they're all Americans, but theythere's at least someI would say a kernel of the character is forged in the German fire. So back then, you know, we were in. Right and Left Painting. I want to talk to them. Associated persons: T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, Tyler M Kreider, Caroline L Lerner, Paul Nelson (617) 262-0166. Leon Neal / Getty Images . So, you know, we met, we discussed it, and it was far more complex than I thought it would be. And thatyou know, in those cases, I think only if it rises to the level of a conflict of interest that violates the oath. But, but then, you know, many, many years later, basically, it was all dissipated. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I'm not that interested. Thank you for supporting the National Gallery of Art National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; About National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; CLIFFORD SCHORER: Hands on. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, you were living with your mother? [Affirmative.]. Occupation: Real Estate/Realtor. So I have a whale vertebrae the size of this table. So my businesses create a lot of physical assets. [Laughs.] Is it an official. Okay? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My first car was my grandfather's van. And so, in this case, weyou know, I really got ready for it, and I expected it to be, you know, the same price as the last time, and I was prepared for that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobut anyway, I mean, it's. And, you know, we were talking yesterday about the Museum of Science. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. So it is veryyes, you know, you have to put the, you know, the benchmarks of pricing in their histories, but now that I'm in the trade, which is a very different perspective, I have to take those shackles off a bit because I think like an old man, like every old man. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, it wasn't expected. JUDITH RICHARDS: Good morning. The Louvre, when it was easy to go in and easy to come out. JUDITH RICHARDS: This must've been extremely difficult for your family as well as you. I couldn't afford that. It was a much smaller circle. I was making a lot of money for three weeks, and I was traveling for three weeks. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I mean, my eye has changed. So I would go up to Montreal, live there for a little while, and come back. So then flash-forward three years, and it's back on the market again, with a slightly lower estimate this time. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maybe, maybe, I don't know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And easy to walk around, and easy to spend three days there, you know. Where there's a profit to be made by. JUDITH RICHARDS: But it sounds like it proved to be a good choice. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that a new revelation? There were things that were not really museum pieces, but they were very valuable things. Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. JUDITH RICHARDS: the auctions and the collectors? JUDITH RICHARDS: Have there been anythis might be my last question. Menu. Winslow Homer. If they own the work, they would certainly love to have any preparatory works that relate to it in their PDP collections, in their works on paper collection. [Affirmative.] I'm not, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a board that you're, CLIFFORD SCHORER: The structure is executive director is Anthony Crichton-Stuart, yeah. 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